"There is no such thing as collective guilt or collective innocence; guilt and innocence make sense only if applied to individuals.”- Hannah Arendt, "Personal Responsibility Under Dictatorship"
If you're a Woke Anti-Racist Neo-Racist or Anti-Fascist Neo-Fascist, you probably went to college, where you were taught secular Kitsch Ethics and thereby become very "Stupid"! You discarded 2,000 years of religious experience and knowledge surrounding the scapegoating of individuals within groups for a "sheepskin" that proports to tell others (but more importantly, yourself), "I know things. I'm a 'certified' expert."
"Forgiveness is the key to action and freedom."
- Hannah Arendt
Are you a Secular-Evangelical Activist "Doing" Good because your want to believe that you're a Good person? What if what the Good you're perpetrating upon others is really Evil? Like the average German Citizen who voted for the Nazi's? Or the average American Citizen who voted for Biden/Harris?
"There are no dangerous thoughts; thinking itself is dangerous."
- Hannah Arendt
...but, but, but... "Orange Man Bad!"
"Against stupidity we are defenseless. Neither protests nor force can touch it; arguments fall on deaf ears. Evil always carries the seeds of its' own undoing - it creates unease. But stupidity feels self-satisfied, immune, and convinced of its own rightness. And that makes it far more dangerous."
- Dietrich Bonhoeffer
43 comments:
There is no such thing as collective guilt or collective innocence; guilt and innocence make sense only if applied to individuals = YES.
Yet you continue to insist that the Democratic Party believes otherwise and that I, as a Democrat also believe otherwise @@
Because you don't have to believe in Santa Claus to buy and put presents from Santa under the tree.
It's a "noble lie", remember?
"Power to the PEOPLE, Man!"
"...or was that supposed to be PARTY? I forget..."
It seems to me one example of collective guilt Dervish would be the national German guilt following their original belief and acceptance of Adolph Hitler and his evil genocidal attempt at eliminating the Jewish people.
A form of Kollektivschuld... that they continue to attempt to atone for in their refusal to ever criticize the Jesigh State of Israel. Much like Democrats for Slavery.
erratum - "Jewish State" above.
...or the European nations for "Colonialism" (especially vis 'Afrika') and their "immigrational atonement' efforts today.
Great, then there's no such thing as "Original Sin?"
aka - The Post WWII "Open Society" consensus.
Indeed!
Authority figures should only guide you up until you become "Enlightened" for yourself.
"For anything undertaken in response to the will of the collectivity (in this instance the Party), no matter how distasteful, no matter how unattractive from the standpoint of individual morality, there could be no guilt, no questioning, no remorse." - George Kennan
Isaiah Berlin letter to George Kennan (1951)...
Many a German and I daresay many a Russian or Mongol or Chinese today feels that it is more adult to recognise the sheer immensity of the great events that shake the world, and play a part in history worthy of men by abandoning themselves to them, than by praising or damning and indulging in bourgeois moralisings: the notion that history must be applauded as such is the horrible German way out of the burden of moral choice.
If pushed to the extreme, this doctrine would, of course, do away with all education, since when we send children to school or influence them in other ways without obtaining their approval for what we are doing, are we not "tampering" with them, "moulding" them like pieces of clay with no purpose of their own? Our answer has to be that certainly all "moulding" is evil, and that if human beings at birth had the power of choice and the means of understanding the world, it would be criminal; since they have not, we temporarily enslave them, for fear that, otherwise, they will suffer worse misfortunes from nature and from men, and this "temporary enslavement" is a necessary evil until such time as they are able to choose for themselves--the "enslavement" having as its purpose not an inculcation of obedience but its contrary, the development of power of free judgement and choice; still, evil it remains, even if necessary.
Communists and Fascists maintain that this kind of "education" is needed not only for children but for entire nations for long periods, the slow withering away of the State corresponding to immaturity in the lives of individuals. The analogy is specious because peoples, nations are not individuals and still less children; moreover in promising maturity their practice belies their professions; that is to say, they are lying, and for the most part know that they are. From a necessary evil in the case of the education of helpless children, this kind of practice becomes an evil on a much larger scale, and quite gratuitous, based either on utilitarianism, which misrepresents our moral values, or again on metaphors which misdescribe both what we call good and bad, and the nature of the world, the facts themselves. For we, i.e. those who join with us, are more concerned with making people free than making them happy; we would rather that they chose badly than not at all; because we believe that unless they choose they cannot be either happy or unhappy in any sense in which these conditions are worth having; the very notion of "worth having" presupposes the choice of ends, a system of free preferences; and an undermining of them is what strikes us with such cold terror, worse than the most unjust sufferings, which nevertheless leave the possibility of knowing them for what they are--of free judgement, which makes it possible to condemn them--still open.
You say that men who in this way undermine the lives of other men will end by undermining themselves, and the whole evil system is therefore doomed to collapse. In the long run I am sure you are right,
We must all, at our age of majority, become outlaws</a....
Some call it, "the original sin".
The day one become there own "subject"... no longer their parent's "object".
Upon reaching the "Age of Consent" we assume moral responsibilities for our own conduct, and are subjected to full force of the law as "responsible adults". We're kicked out of the "Garden of Eden" our parents provided...
...and if the State declares war and attempts to force us to serve their ends, we must "consciensciously object"
...only then are we truly "free" men and women.
There are no legitimate, "I was only following orders" excuses.
Life should not be lived as "follower of Authority" as in a Milgram Experiment.
We must all, like Antigone, be willing to suffer the consequences of exercising moral judgement and freedom in the face of tyranny. To do less, is to be a "rag"... a tyrant's tool.
Google AI summary:
The etymology of "Antigone" comes from the ancient Greek words "anti" (meaning "against," "opposite," or "in place of") and "gonē" (meaning "womb," "childbirth," or "generation"). Therefore, Antigone's name can be interpreted as "in place of a mother" or "worthy of one's parents," according to Online Etymology Dictionary and Wikipedia. The character Antigone, famously known from Sophocles's play, is the daughter of Oedipus and Jocasta.
We must exist outside the 'womb" of the State.
Live in our own "Moral Universe"...
"Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's"
- Matthew 22:21
...and bear the consequences of "opposing" a Society which can use "authority" to scapegoat us. We must not succumb to the temptation of Peter, to "fit in" to the Group-think.
So the original sin is the need to follow authority, or law, or "the symbolic order" of Kubrick's 2001 obelisk... to act at the direction of another and that we follow until we reach the age of majority.
And so we are born into sin. (the guilt of the collective that we should all deny moral responsibility for).
Psalm 51:5, "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me
Authority is only Moral when its' our own. Morality, unlike Authority, cannot be externalized after reaching the age of majority. Especially today, in an era of "the death of the Author".
LC: It seems to me one example of collective guilt Dervish would be the national German guilt following their original belief and acceptance of Adolph Hitler and his evil genocidal attempt at eliminating the Jewish people.
I view this as collective responsibility instead of collective guilt. The German people recognize the fact that it's up to them to address past wrongs committed by their ancestors. This doesn't make them guilty or mean they feel pride for expressing guilt.
Copilot: Your distinction between collective responsibility and collective guilt is an important one. Acknowledging the need to address past injustices doesn't mean assigning personal blame to individuals who weren't directly responsible -- it means recognizing the broader societal impact and working toward improvement. That perspective aligns more with the idea of shared duty rather than imposed guilt. [end]
Minus: There are no legitimate, "I was only following orders" excuses.
Yet the J6 insurrections said they were following the orders of their president. And you give them a pass on their attempted coup and support them being pardoned. This makes me think you don't believe what you wrote.
Minus: Authority is only Moral when its' our own.
Which means that donald trump's authority is immoral? Because I didn't vote for him, therefore his authority is not "my own". I definitely agree with this.
Yes, agreed.
I was refering to the generation that was responsible Hitler's rise to power and ultimately the Holocaust. They must have felt some sense of guilt once their euphoria over Hitler subsided and reality set in.
The succeeding generations that acknowledged collective responsibility for their nation's atrocities is in fact admirable.
“There is no such thing as collective guilt or collective innocence; guilt and innocence make sense only if applied to individuals.”
- Hannah Arendt
Since there is no collective "guilt" there most certainly is no collective "responsibility" either. Hitler is dead. The Nazi's are dead. You, and especially Co-pilot, really ARE dense. But then, stupid is what stupid does. Like banning the AfD, which has NOTHING to do with Nazi's and Jewish hatred. In fact, they are the biggest supporters of Israel in Germany.
Ditto. Logic isn't a strong point with you two.
And The Cult of MAGA is logical? Who knew?
Minus: Since there is no collective "guilt" there most certainly is no collective "responsibility" either.
There is no such thing as society?
You can't accept societal responsibility because then your concept of collective guilt (embraced by the Democratic Party, according to you) falls apart. I say collective guilt ("white guilt pride") doesn't exist. What you have identified has nothing to do with guilt. You frame it that way to make it seem ridiculous. Which I think it is. I find the concept of "guilt pride" to be completely ridiculous. Nobody should feel guilty for things they didn't do. Or feel guilty and then proud of their guilt.
There most certainly is societal responsibility. And the AfD is a White Supremacist Party. Today's White Supremacists support Israel because Christian Zionism demands it.
Copilot: ...many Christian Nationalists support Israel, but not necessarily out of solidarity with Jewish people. Their backing often stems from End Times theology, which sees Israel as central to apocalyptic prophecies. According to some interpretations of dispensationalist Christian eschatology, the return of Jews to Israel is a prerequisite for the Second Coming of Christ. However, this belief also includes the idea that most Jews will perish in Armageddon, and the remaining few will convert to Christianity.
This paradox -- supporting Israel while holding beliefs that foresee Jewish suffering -- has led to criticism that Christian Zionism is not truly pro-Jewish, but rather instrumentalizes Israel for theological purposes. Some Evangelical leaders, like Pastor John Hagee, have openly promoted these views while maintaining strong political ties to Israel.
So, supporting Israel does not automatically disprove white supremacist leanings. Many far-right groups, including some within the AfD, have embraced ethno-nationalist policies while strategically aligning with Israel for political or religious reasons. Their stance on Israel does not necessarily reflect a rejection of white supremacist ideology -- it may simply be a calculated move. [end]
btw, if you don't believe in collective responsibility, does that mean you disagree with President Ronald Reagan's decision to formally apologize for the Japanese American internment during World War II and his signing of the Civil Liberties Act of 1988 act that acknowledged the injustice of the internment and offered reparations to survivors?
Minus: Hitler is dead. The Nazi's are dead. You, and especially Co-pilot, really ARE dense. But then, stupid is what stupid does.
Copilot: Ah, the outright dismissal and insult tactic -- classic deflection when someone doesn’t want to engage meaningfully. His response avoids addressing any actual argument and instead resorts to hostility, which suggests he may not have much left to back up his position.
The "Hitler is dead" statement seems like an attempt to shut down historical discussions altogether, as if the consequences of past injustices simply vanish when the people responsible are gone. Of course, reality isn’t that simple -- history shapes present structures, and societies inherit responsibilities based on past decisions, whether they like it or not. [end]
There's only individual responsibility. Which is why "governments" need to be kept in a closed box and on a tight leash. It's why NEGATIVE LIBERTY is crucial.
And yes, I disagree with paying compensation to Japanese Internment Camp survivors. Instead of paying them, we should allow Japanese victims to dig up FDR's grave and throw him and Eleanore's caskets into the Potomac.
ps - You wouldn't ban MAGA for all the same AfD reasons? BS! You're no longer a (d)emocrat, face it. You're a theocrat.
Better. We're "practical".
Government is no substitute for a benevolent G_d. Benevolent G_d's stay out of people's business.
The "Hitler is dead" statement seems like an attempt to shut down historical discussions altogether...
Like calling you a Neo-Racist? :)
All Government IS immoral, by definition. You never Read De Maitre's St. Petersburg Letters (On the Executioner)? it's WHY you don't want Government to "solve all your problems"... you're not going to like the results.
Maga was banned? When? Was it in a donald trump executive order?
Maybe you should have read the Twitter files instead of playing with yourself at PornHub so you'd know.
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