//Les CarpenterSeptember 2, 2026 at 6:30 PM Even Thomas Paine understood and expressed the ideals of socialism as it relates to The General Welfare. We he around today he certainly would have been a socialist.
BTW anymouse @ 3:35 PM, even Karl Marx acknowledged that Capitalism was far better than anything that came before it. He acknowledged that it created wealth and improved the life of certai people. He also realized the potential evils Capitalism was capable of producing. IE: great economic inequality.
So? WHEN we'd hear (or reciting Marx's) recepie of HOW to achieve that "economic equality"? ;-p
Or... we need to conclude, that you able to produce only hit fumes... from your ars. ))))
//Karl Marx acknowledged that Capitalism was far better than anything that came before it. He acknowledged that it created wealth and improved the life of certai people.
Not "certain".
ALL people.
Like workers in his factories -- that got salary. And possibility to buy a car -- luxury in that time.
Other people in USA -- was able to buy car too -- impossible if no Henry Ford.
And even people over seas became able to buy a car.
THAT IS that "surplus" you was talking about, while understanding zilch.
Productive worker can generate WEALTH of far grater range.,. IF only he do it under governance of capitalust.
So there are no issues that arise from applying the productive efficiency that is the result of the Division of labour? Even Adam Smith acknowledges its' problems and proposed that the losses in workers skills be compensated with free public education.
The quote "Everyone complains of his memory, and no one complains of his judgment" was said by François de La Rochefoucauld, a 17th-century French author and moralist.
The Iliad and the Odyssey did not just reflect ancient Greek society; they actively shaped the foundational values, behaviors, and cultural identity of Western civilization. In the ancient Mediterranean, these texts operated less like modern fiction and more like a cultural blueprint, establishing specific codes of conduct that governed personal honor, politics, and social relations.
Here are the primary civilizational behaviors and values these epics generated.
The Competitive Ethos and Individual Honor
The poems established a civilization driven by intensive competition and the pursuit of individual excellence, known as arete.
The Shame Culture: Action was driven by kleos (eternal glory) and time (honor). Because value was determined by public perception, society developed a hyper-focus on reputation, public accountability, and physical or intellectual achievement.
The Zero-Sum Mindset: Honor was often viewed as a finite resource. To gain honor, one had to take it from another, establishing a highly competitive social framework that later manifested in the Olympic Games, political rivalries, and intense philosophical debates.
The Regulation of Social and International Relations
The epics provided practical, sacred frameworks for how different groups—even enemies—should interact with one another.
Xenia (Guest-Friendship): This was the sacred duty of hospitality. Hosts were expected to feed and protect strangers before even asking their names, and guests were expected to respect the host's home. Xenia acted as an ancient diplomatic code, allowing safe travel, trade, and diplomacy across a fragmented and dangerous Mediterranean world.
Supplication: The poems codified rituals for surrender and mercy. When a defeated warrior or a person in distress took the posture of a suppliant (often touching the knees of the powerful), it triggered a religious obligation to show mercy, creating early boundaries for wartime conduct.
Exploration, Ingenuity, and Rule of Law
While the Iliad celebrates martial force (bie), the Odyssey shifts civilization toward mental agility (metis), establishing a blueprint for maritime exploration and civic order.
Intellectual Adaptability: Odysseus popularized the archetype of the polytropos—the man of many turns, or the problem solver. This catalyzed a shift in civilizational values from brute strength to cunning, scientific curiosity, and strategic planning.
Defining Civilization vs. Barbarism: The Odyssey explicitly defines what a civilized society looks like by contrasting Ithaca with the land of the Cyclopes. To the Greeks, "barbarians" were those who lacked agriculture, Assemblies (parliaments), laws, and respect for xenia. This generated a strong civic identity rooted in legal systems and public debate.
🐎💩
ReplyDeleteAre those your pronouns, Derv?
DeleteNaaah. That's his sphere of expertise as "professor". ;-p
DeleteDouble that... !!
ReplyDelete//Les CarpenterSeptember 2, 2026 at 6:30 PM
DeleteEven Thomas Paine understood and expressed the ideals of socialism as it relates to The General Welfare. We he around today he certainly would have been a socialist.
BTW anymouse @ 3:35 PM, even Karl Marx acknowledged that Capitalism was far better than anything that came before it. He acknowledged that it created wealth and improved the life of certai people. He also realized the potential evils Capitalism was capable of producing. IE: great economic inequality.
So?
WHEN we'd hear (or reciting Marx's) recepie of HOW to achieve that "economic equality"? ;-p
Or... we need to conclude, that you able to produce only hit fumes... from your ars. ))))
//Karl Marx acknowledged that Capitalism was far better than anything that came before it. He acknowledged that it created wealth and improved the life of certai people.
DeleteNot "certain".
ALL people.
Like workers in his factories -- that got salary. And possibility to buy a car -- luxury in that time.
Other people in USA -- was able to buy car too -- impossible if no Henry Ford.
And even people over seas became able to buy a car.
THAT IS that "surplus" you was talking about, while understanding zilch.
Productive worker can generate WEALTH of far grater range.,. IF only he do it under governance of capitalust.
Period.
So there are no issues that arise from applying the productive efficiency that is the result of the Division of labour? Even Adam Smith acknowledges its' problems and proposed that the losses in workers skills be compensated with free public education.
DeleteRemember? My "became smarter". ;-)
Delete...as Capitalism makes the workers increasingly "stupid".
DeleteAI doesn't make anyone "smarter".
DeleteAnceint and medeival men memorized entire books. Moslems even today are expected to memorize the Quran.
DeleteThe Quran is a great book for a desert people. The Bible is a great book for a proto-civilizational people.
DeleteWho said it about AI???
DeleteBecame smarter ourself.
The quote "Everyone complains of his memory, and no one complains of his judgment" was said by François de La Rochefoucauld, a 17th-century French author and moralist.
DeleteJust as the Iliad and Odyssey were great books:
DeleteThe Iliad and the Odyssey did not just reflect ancient Greek society; they actively shaped the foundational values, behaviors, and cultural identity of Western civilization. In the ancient Mediterranean, these texts operated less like modern fiction and more like a cultural blueprint, establishing specific codes of conduct that governed personal honor, politics, and social relations.
Here are the primary civilizational behaviors and values these epics generated.
The Competitive Ethos and Individual Honor
The poems established a civilization driven by intensive competition and the pursuit of individual excellence, known as arete.
The Shame Culture: Action was driven by kleos (eternal glory) and time (honor). Because value was determined by public perception, society developed a hyper-focus on reputation, public accountability, and physical or intellectual achievement.
The Zero-Sum Mindset: Honor was often viewed as a finite resource. To gain honor, one had to take it from another, establishing a highly competitive social framework that later manifested in the Olympic Games, political rivalries, and intense philosophical debates.
The Regulation of Social and International Relations
The epics provided practical, sacred frameworks for how different groups—even enemies—should interact with one another.
Xenia (Guest-Friendship): This was the sacred duty of hospitality. Hosts were expected to feed and protect strangers before even asking their names, and guests were expected to respect the host's home. Xenia acted as an ancient diplomatic code, allowing safe travel, trade, and diplomacy across a fragmented and dangerous Mediterranean world.
Supplication: The poems codified rituals for surrender and mercy. When a defeated warrior or a person in distress took the posture of a suppliant (often touching the knees of the powerful), it triggered a religious obligation to show mercy, creating early boundaries for wartime conduct.
Exploration, Ingenuity, and Rule of Law
While the Iliad celebrates martial force (bie), the Odyssey shifts civilization toward mental agility (metis), establishing a blueprint for maritime exploration and civic order.
Intellectual Adaptability: Odysseus popularized the archetype of the polytropos—the man of many turns, or the problem solver. This catalyzed a shift in civilizational values from brute strength to cunning, scientific curiosity, and strategic planning.
Defining Civilization vs. Barbarism: The Odyssey explicitly defines what a civilized society looks like by contrasting Ithaca with the land of the Cyclopes. To the Greeks, "barbarians" were those who lacked agriculture, Assemblies (parliaments), laws, and respect for xenia. This generated a strong civic identity rooted in legal systems and public debate.
Like Marvel blockbusters today? ;-p
DeleteOr you think modern children do not look at am for role models and learning about modern world?
DeleteEven adults.
We all have X-Men superpowers? Who knew?
DeleteManga will enter the canon of "Great books"...
DeleteWelcome to Station Eleven.... "I remember damage..."
Delete//We all have X-Men superpowers?
DeleteDo we have hoverboard and self-tighting Nikes? From Back to the Future?
If there'd demand -g capitalists will make it... in due timr.
Yawn.
If there demand? Won't they simply create demand (propaganda)? Torches of freedom!
DeleteWhat commodity must I fetishize today? Tell, me, Madison Avenue. Show me Axciom...
DeleteDesire is the desire of the 'other'...(Lacan)
DeleteDo you care? Yawn.
DeleteNaaah. I desire to be "authentically" different from others. ;)
DeleteYou already are.
DeleteYawn.
//...as Capitalism makes the workers increasingly "stupid".
ReplyDeleteYeah???
So AI created not caoitalists?
And smartaces programmers -- which they cherished and gardened.
Who'd knew... yawn.
Must be some goodie-goodie Socialists... NO, Commie geniuses, created AIs, and gave to everyone free if charge access to em? %^P
DeleteThe AIs didn't steal their jobs? The "technological singularity" has been averted? Who knew?
DeleteWhere will the capital for the workers to employ their AIs some from? Data mining bitcoin?
The AI's will write future workflows and deploy the AI Agents, not programmers.
Delete//The AIs didn't steal their jobs?
DeleteWhile vreating lots of new better ones?
What better -- "walking the bean" on the farm? Or as worker at Ford's factory? (Or... in nice and cisy office of Das Guugle?) ;-)
Which one is a greater sign of independence? Family farm owners or proles working for Ford Corporation?
DeleteWhich one can drive across continent? ;-p
DeleteSurely that is farmer in his horse cart. ;-p
And not car with hundred horses under the hood flying over interstate.
And not businessman in a jumbojet.
And not space tourist...
And all those are signs of independence? Or inter-dependence?
DeleteWhy you choose farmers, and not hunters-gatherers, then? ;-p
DeleteThey even more "independent".
From common sense and possibility of survival.
Yawn.
Crickets hete.,. yawn.
Delete//The "technological singularity" has been averted?
ReplyDeleteStooopid idea by stooopid people.
Same as Marx's about "socialism"... that will hapoen by itself.
"There's NO Skynet, NO Matrix.., only us"(tm)
How many Optimus units will man the Optimus Gigafactory?
Delete???
Delete